Exploring Consciousness Through Out-of-Body Experiences: An Interview Bridging Neuroscience and Human Potential

This interview was carried out by Sophie Wenger in 2017

and is partially transcribed here.

Dear Rodrigo, how would you introduce yourself to a group of insomniac patients?

I'm a neuroscientist with a specialization in sleep medicine and a researcher of non-ordinary sleep phenomena related to consciousness research. Basically, I spend my nights studying how people can have non-ordinary experiences instead of sleeping—while I lose my sleep figuring it out! (Laughing!)

And what do you do?

At the present moment, I work in a start-up called Gamma Wave Technologies Ltd., and I'm finalizing my PhD [current situation]. I have been carrying out research on out-body experiences (OBE), with the main focus on understanding OBE and Consciousness. In other words, the objective is to understand how we can better understand consciousness through the OBEs.

And who are you?

As a person? I define myself as a researcher, a researcher who studies consciousness and the evolutionary potential of non-ordinary states. This is what describes me with the most accuracy.

What is your passion?

I am really passionate about understanding consciousness from a scientific point-of-view: how can we use science, with today's scientific methodology and today's scientific approach, to understand consciousness. But not consciousness as seen within the limited spectrum of neuroscience, studying only the brain or the conditions of the brain, but understanding consciousness with a higher perspective. Taking into consideration all the aspects that are not usually studied by science, such as OBE and psychic phenomena, and more specifically, how they can enlighten us about the nature of consciousness itself and reality. That is what I am passionate about. Understanding this also gives insights into the nature of who we are ourselves, as consciousnesses inside a body, and how we can expand our capacities to be able to tap into those inner potentials and enlighten ourselves. This understanding is certainly at the base of knowing oneself and living better lives, being more tolerant, and being more at peace with each other!

Wow, and so what led you to study consciousness?

Well, my own experiences. Although I experienced my first spontaneous OBE at the age of 5, it was dismissed as a dream, influenced by my mother's interpretation. It wasn't until I intentionally induced an OBE at 19 that I truly grasped the significance of such experiences. The experience led me to a truly transformative shift of consciousness that really opened my eyes to reality. From that moment on, my perception shifted from an understanding that was purely coming from an experiential understanding that consciousness was local, coming from the brain, whatever the substrates of consciousness were. My understanding at that time, before this experience, was very materialistic. Even though I understood that we could study consciousness, I saw consciousness as something encased in the physical body and related to the brain. And I thought that if we understood the mechanisms of consciousness, it would be related to the understanding of the brain. However, while consciousness is interlinked and related to the brain, it's not encased or limited by the characteristics of the brain. And, if anything, these experiences teach us that we are not the brain or the physical body. My first OBE was truly insightful and profoundly impactful. And like millions of others who have undergone similar experiences, it provided me with undeniable experiential evidence that we are not confined to the physical body. Indeed, having an OBE is something that shifts your mind to understand very clearly, through your own experience, that we are not the physical body. That our consciousness can manifest non-locally and that we can perceive ourselves as something entirely different, something much more complex, something much more evolved, something more profound than generally, the physical, materialistic or reductionist views admit. And so, once you start having those experiences, you start to look at life in a much more complex way. And, of course, as a neuroscientist, these experiences gave me insights into the nature of consciousness with a unique experiential perspective. One that suggests indeed, as other philosophers of consciousness have alluded to, that the brain is just a filter of consciousness, more so that the nature of the consciousness can be studied through the substrata of phenomena associated with OBEs. As such, my objective in researching consciousness in the Lab with OBEs is to study this interrelation between consciousness manifested in OBEs and the brain and to start to understand how we can, by studying the brain, and specifically OBEs, understand better what consciousness is—in a sense also avoiding purely "speculative" and theoretical theories of consciousness that try to understand consciousness through the brain, rather than looking at the phenomenology of consciousness through OBEs as a manifestation of consciousness. More precisely, OBEs provide a distinctive and invaluable framework to investigate consciousness not only as a function of brain activity but as a phenomenon that might transcend the neural and physical confines traditionally ascribed to it, opening avenues to explore its non-locality and independence through scientific, repeatable protocols.

What makes you laugh?

What makes me laugh??? (laughing, surprised…). Everything can make you laugh, haha… Some things specifically that make me laugh?… I am not sure; I tend to find myself a little bit like that old boring guy in St-Exupéry's "Le Petit Prince" when he meets the businessman who is very obtusely close-minded with his work… I don't tend necessarily to be a very funny person myself, so I am probably a little bit more pompous (laugh) than I should be for my own good… but otherwise, I think that in life, we should laugh about everything, including serious research about out-of-body experiences! Including yourself! Being derisory with oneself is important. Always be concerned about people who think too much about themselves.. More so if they are projectors!

Is there something you do to preserve the Earth that you would like to share?

I tend to be self-aware and conscious about preserving the Earth. I'm an ecologist at heart. Although I am a carnivore, I do understand that this is not the best way to go forward regarding the current understanding of the impact that this has on Earth. So, in the past few years, I have tended to reduce my meat consumption and geared towards being a flexitarian. However, I also understand, from a neuroscientific point-of-view, that we certainly are still in an evolutionary condition where, as a species, we still need an intake of meat, specifically because of the health of the brain. Indeed, although such an idea is controversial in a few communities, there are longitudinal brain research studies that suggest that the brain is more protected against psychiatric illness when eating meat. However, the notion is not necessarily broadly accepted… In any case, I have tried to reduce my consumption of meat.

And how do you feel?

Not better, not worse, that's the most important thing, I think! I tend to eat less meat, generally speaking. I think the important thing is for people to listen better to their own body's needs. In other words, I find that my organism hasn't been affected by the reduction of my consumption in the way I have implemented it. There is no impact on my health, there is no impact on my consciousness, and there is no impact on my ability to have OBEs either, as some suggest. However, it is not necessarily something that I have measured objectively. So, I try to be more conscious of the fact that, yes, reducing meat consumption is an ecological need, being one of the highest contributors to greenhouse gas emissions, energy use, deforestation, soil degradation and water use.

How do you meditate, and how often, if this is something you do at all?

Yes, I used to do this more often, specifically when I started to study consciousness. I stopped because I saw a lot of limitations and flaws in philosophies that were related to the Buddhist practices I was doing. Although they were considered philosophies, I saw them more and more as religious. However, I have come back a little bit to some types of meditation with the objective of studying meditations as a means to study consciousness further and specifically to verify what sorts of meditation can help increase our chances of achieving awareness in OBEs. So the reality is that by studying more about meditation, we can understand ourselves a little bit better our mind; at the same time, it may be a way to become more aware of any conditioning and become more self-aware while at the same time trying to achieve a less egocentric perspective. I mean, less focused on your Ego and with a mindset geared towards a more non-dual perspective, like the states you sometimes experience during OBEs. Nonetheless, I think that one of the biggest gains that one can have by doing meditation and trying to integrate mindfulness into one's own life is to achieve a condition in which you put your own egoistic, self-centred views of the world on the background of the mind. So effectively, you express less "me, I, mine" type of thoughts. I think that's very positive and very evolutionary in terms of our way of dealing with life and, again, dealing with a society that shows more and more a lack of tolerance being increasingly conditioned by internet fears. But by saying that, I don't necessarily subscribe to the ideas and philosophies which defend the point of view that we need to eradicate the Ego. I think the "I’' and the "me’' are important and needed for us to understand the goals we have in life, to criticize our "Self", to apprehend life and concepts logically, as well as being important in practical day-to-day terms. It is our body that needs food. We need to pay the bills. And while that is true, I think that more often than not, in social situations, we need to put the egocentric perspective and the "I" voice in the background and be in the present moment and live without this self-centred homo sapiens egocentric type of attitude. In other words, we need to listen more. Put off the Ego. It is the least important aspect of the self socially.

Do you ever feel disconnected from yourself?

No, I don't! On the contrary, I feel too connected with myself. I don't know if it's a strange way to say it. Still, sometimes, when you are maybe a little bit too self-aware, it can be a limitation, so in a way, I would love to feel a little bit less connected to myself, more open-minded and less self-centred. No, I never feel like I am disconnected from myself! In fact, although some researchers suggest that OBEs are just dissociative states, in states that express this notion of being disconnected from the Self, my OBEs have never led me to feel this way. In fact, the contrary is true. My feelings post-OBE always led me to be much more clear-headed, more aware, and more in control of myself. They often lead me to a state of energy, well-being and flow.

Have you ever had an experience of something you would call "grace" or something similar?    

Unfortunately, not so much as I would have liked. I have had some glimpses of states of bliss. These experiences were specifically associated with non-dual states and oceanic feelings either achieved at OBE-onset (just before OBEs) or during OBEs. Some of them were experienced during what can be called meditative workouts, which have the objective of helping induce the vibrational state. One of them was working in such a state in my home, and what I felt was very difficult to describe. I felt a sense of bliss, well-being, of connection to life, of universal understanding, of love, of happiness. It was brief and strangely tainted with a little bit of sadness, even though that did not impact my emotional state in any negative way. It was like a very, very deep and broad type of feeling. Something I have only experienced very, very few times. But it's not something that I would describe as what is called cosmic consciousness, a samadhi or satori, or enlightenment, as it did not have all aspects of such experience. I could really feel a profound inner sentiment of connecting with the universe or with things in a non-ordinary state. Still, I did not have the insightfulness often described in such states of omniscience or understanding. It was felt in a way that is very wide-ranging in terms of perception, but above all, it was an expansion of sentiments that is very difficult to describe considering the depth of feelings expressed at that moment. Certainly, it was not something that you necessarily experience in a normal state, certainly not. Those were extraordinarily emotionally balanced conditions, for me, anyway. So, I have felt such sorts of expansion of perception a few times, but I would count these on both hands in terms of the number of times that I have experienced these. Another moment such as this one was instigated by the perception of consciousness, which seemed to be coming towards me, even though that was a very short experience if compared to other ones. There was a depth of sentiments of serenity and maybe wisdom connected to this consciousness that had an apparent power and radiance. Nonetheless, it implicitly had a very simple nature in the expression of its self. So imagine yourself seeing a being that has so much power and force but is paradoxically very simple and very human to you. So those were some of the things I experienced, sensing a little bit of that condition of grace [1].

So when you said "human", do you mean the features or the energy of this consciousness?

I mean that these consciousnesses not only appear human in terms of appearance and characteristics per se, but also the expression and nature of their being reflect human-like characteristics of simplicity if we think about the power they seem to possess. We often think about people with power through our own human and social lenses as people with overconfidence and emotional detachment to the hurts of humanity that are expressed in emotional blunting and even narcissism of the personalities of billionaires [with rare exceptions]. But this was not something like that. It was not something "extraterrestrial" either. I mean, it was not something out of the ordinary or something really fantastic, even though it paradoxically was, because, at the same time, it was powerful and profoundly simple, human, if not obviously wise. No, it was above the expression of someone very human in its nature. It did not feel like an angel-like or religious figure in any way, shape or form either. So what I mean is that this consciousness was very human in terms of comparing it to the potential and power that this being clearly expressed. Yet, it remained simple and emotionally intelligent. Seeing that and being connected with this consciousness for a few seconds had the effect of uplifting my mood and my serenity, as well as my personal vision and insights, at that moment. It is still an image that I very clearly have in my mind [2].

Would you like to share one of your very beautiful OBEs?

Do you mean things that I have seen? The most visually beautiful, down-to-earth experiences one can have in OBE are the exo-projections. When, for a while, you project outside the stratosphere of the planet and start reaching out to the exosphere. Those are absolutely stunning experiences, and I have had many of them. The impressions are indescribable. Especially when you reach the level where everything becomes black, and you start seeing the stars. Certainly, these experiences are stunning visually, but I have talked a lot about the effect these OBEs may have on our psyche. But the other astonishing condition of these experiences – little talked about – is to realize the speed one has during these experiences. In many experiences, you can fly as slowly as a weather balloon or as quickly as a meteor, reaching speed much beyond the known limitation of the speed of light and in our understanding of it. Indeed, anyone flying during their OBEs can experience such speeds. I personally even tried to make a few calculations based on my subjective perception of the time it took me in projections to fly upwards from the troposphere to the upper levels of the mesosphere [a few parts of the initial paragraphs talking about a specific exo-projection were removed to be used in an upcoming book].

And have you encountered any extraterrestrials?

Yes, I have (laughing...). In fact, everyone who is starting to have more OBEs may go through such types of experiences. Today, they can even be considered archetypical, inborn universal models of distinct aspects of identity and personality. If not, certainly, the experience may be considered a modern projection of the collective unconscious, symbolizing deeply ingrained patterns of human thought and emotion, specifically considering how prevalent references to ETs are, at least since Spielberg's ET. Nonetheless, these experiences are more commonly reported during experiences of sleep paralysis and have been researched by eminent researchers and psychiatrists in the field, such as John E. Mack, a Harvard psychiatrist. Although these are considered more controversial experiences — and rightly so — since sleep paralysis is inherently linked to OBEs, specifically when occurring during sleep states that often serve as a precursor to them—I believe that being open to the characteristics of these experiences can increase the likelihood of having OBEs of this nature. I would say, nonetheless, it's nothing so major or so different from other experiences that one may have in OBEs, such as encountering a dead relative, which can be more profound and impactful experiences [3]! I have reported one such incredible experience in my book, "The out-of-body Experience: An Experiential Anthology".

Wow!... And how about our brain capacity? What can we do to improve it in terms of lucidity, speed, and memory? Do you have some tools or exercises that you could share with us?

(Laughing) Do you mean to achieve OBEs? Those, I would say, are more related to neurosciences, the understanding of the brain, and exercises that you can apply to yourself. Everything that you do to improve your conscious awareness will improve your consciousness during OBEs. So the more aware you are, the more serene you are, the more aware and serene the expressions of your consciousness will be in such states. And vice versa, if you start to have more lucid projections, this is going to have an impact on your capacity of lucidity, to be aware, to be self-centred. Everything that we do, in terms of our consciousness, in terms of our upbringing, in terms of our maturing, and growing our capacity to be more focused and to be more aware, will help with consciousness development. Even increasing your mnesic capacity may help you recollect OBEs. And so, of course, there are different things that you can do to improve these capacities. You can achieve more concentration simply by reading more, for example, and work on your capacity for retention of information and memorization, which will also, in turn, help with your recollections. There are indeed studies that equally suggest that increased mindfulness, specifically increased metacognition, may increase our ability to achieve Lucid Dreaming (LD) and, as such, use such state to achieve OBEs. However, this is something that needs to be more researched.

We still don't know very well what happens with the brain when we leave the body, and we still don't know what happens with the brain when we are experiencing the out-of-body state. So those are the things that we need to try to find ways to study more, that we need to research more. The process of exteriorization of the consciousness in this respect is very important to study when we do research OBEs. Because when we will be able to measure the neurophysiological correlates of the experience, we will then be more certain of what techniques and types of meditation may help to achieve these. We may then devise ways to induce these states better and develop those capacities of awareness and recollection. This is because then we will understand which neural networks are related to the experience itself. What happens, for example, when the brain processes the information of the paraphysical body? What happens when the centre of consciousness, in the "parabrain", achieves the so-called in-block recollection of the experience? [4] And then, by having a little bit more perception of what is happening, we can devise techniques to be able to improve our capacities, to be more lucid during the take-off, for example, and to be able to recollect those experiences better. These are indeed part of the research that I have been interested in and want to do, studying the neurophysiological correlates of OBE.

Wow, that's fascinating! Can you explain what parabrain is in a few words?

So the parabrain can be referred to as the theoretical interface of the consciousness within the brain. So that's the first thing that you notice when you are out of the body! In the same way that here, most of the time, our consciousness is more related to the brain itself, even though we are self-aware of our body, the self-awareness itself, the centre of your awareness, is not in your feet, nor in your hand. You are aware of your feet, but your consciousness is more related to your persona, to the brain. So when you are out of the body, those are the same characteristics. You feel, as reported by millions of experiencers that your centre of awareness in the paraphysical body is your parabrain—assuming here the notion of an objective body, exteriorized during OBEs. So when you manifest with the astral body, your perception and self-awareness are not in the astral feet of the astral body; they are not in the hand of the astral body; they are in the parabrain. That's the centre of your consciousness there. Sometimes, it's even very interesting to perceive that condition out of out-of-the-body because when you find yourself fully aware, you can even see your parabrain from the inside! So, that is an expression of your consciousness in such a state, although it is important to note that we can consider that as much as the consciousness is not the body, we are not the astral body, nor the parabrain, we only manifest through in such way through this vehicle! These reported characteristics, and these perceptions, among others, are what lead us to perceive and refer to the parabrain as an interface that connects with the brain and allows the consciousness to interact with the filter of the brain. This is particularly noticeable when you perceive the structure of the parabrain going out first, during OBE-onset states, and you perceive those specific sounds, called intracranial sounds, that are currently investigated in sleep research and called Exploding Head Syndrome [5]. So, this centre of awareness is characterized by specific conditions perceived either when you are leaving the body or when you are fully aware during OBEs. But the parabrain can equally be related to a higher state of consciousness not only because you express non-local self-awareness, or express awareness and lucidity, and experience who you know you are now, with the same expression of your Self, but because you can experience cognition, awareness, and lucidity, through the parabrain in any way that doesn't express the limited perceptual levels one normally experience or knowledge limited to what has been acquired in this lifetime. Indeed, not only is the parabrain not limited by the perceptive function of the brain, but it is also not limited by the normal neurological limitations of the synaptic network that you have developed as knowledge through the years. That capacity is suggested by the experience of those who have had non-ordinary states and acquired practical knowledge they didn't have before (e.g., speaking German). And so that capacity of self-awareness becomes expanded and extends beyond that network that we have built in this brain and allows us to access the memories of our consciousness, and so in consequence, we can express a more aware, a more lucid consciousness state because there is an extension of our own perceptions, of our own capacity of understanding, of logics, of insights, because you start using a more evolved aspect of our Self and its capacity for evolution. So that's what the parabrain is [6].

Wow…. (Silent silence space….) Okay, and a different question now: what are your dreams at the moment?

Hahaha… hum, dreams, very simple: I would like to live a very simple, but rich, meaningful life where I can help people understand their own capacities, help them uplift their ability to understand and perceive themselves through other lenses, the lenses of OBEs, but also helping them to use their brain in a way that is more evolved, such as in ways we see the brain working when we achieve the vibrational state... I think that we still have a lot of work to do in terms of recognizing and acting on the capacities that we have as consciousnesses and bringing that capacity and potential to life. And so, I find that one of the big challenges that we have, that we all have, is to bridge the gap between who we are, as consciousnesses that have acquired so much experience in the past, so much more knowledge, possibly wisdom, and the person or the persona that we are in the physical, which is very limited in his perception, in his apprehension, in his comprehension of the world, his social and psychological biases if compared with the extended wisdom and capacities we may possess within our consciousness. So, if we can manage to bridge that gap by understanding how consciousness interacts with the brain and devising tools or protocols of research, that would help us understand how we can trigger a better recognition and a better recollection of the intelligence of the abilities we see OBEs, that would be achieving my dream.

This interview was carried out by Sophie Wenger in 2017.

[1] I have perceived a few of these consciousnesses since then and will report these experiences in future books.

[2] It should be noted that it is my understanding that this sort of experience would be difficult to be experienced by ego-centric or narcissistic individuals, considering such experiences, depending on the pathological level of their conditions, would rather inflate their ego than produce any benefit to them, considering their ingrained thinking. Certainly, if such individuals had such an experience, they would have changed their egocentric perspective, as is the case of Err; see the account of Aridanaeus of Soles of Silicia.

[3] Based on recorded experiences, ETs aren't described to be so different from what one would expect them to be, based on our current understanding and principles of exobiology. Indeed, apart from different physiological features, ETs still tend to smile, they still need eyes to see, and they use the same type of communication we do. So, they do not differ a lot from who we are as a species, considering that they are often seen mostly as humanoids. For a more technical and detailed explanation of such ideas, see the experiences reported by the Swiss Institute of Noetic Sciences (ISSNOE) in the book by Dethiollaz, S. and C. C. Fourrier (2023). Voyage aux confins de la conscience. p. 685.

[4] When the experience is completely recollected in one go without transition to the waking state.

[5] When you are leaving the body, for example, you may perceive, at least sometimes, that your phantom limbs go out first, but in some other cases, it is the parabrain that is first perceived to go out.

[6] Hypothesised here as a consciousness interface of the brain filter.